"De facto, we are committed to the right of asylum and international refugee law. In practice, we do everything we can to avoid having to honour this commitment", says Principal Investigator Steffen Mau in the podcast format "Second Thought" at the regional public radio station rbb Kultur. In this interview, Mau speaks about migration, the EU's border regime and the nature of borders in a continuously globalising world based on his book Sortiermaschinen (2021). Listen to the conversation. Available only in German.